Turning Impostor Syndrome Into A Strength That Drives Referrals | Kitces Podcast (2024)

Resources Featured In This Episode:

• Dann Ryan
• Sincerus Advisory
• Kitces Research on Advisor Wellbeing
• Advice Pay
• Internal Revenue Code
• Black Diamond
• CIMA Certification
• Roger Whitney

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Full Transcript:

Michael:Welcome, Dann Ryan, to the "Financial Advisor Success Podcast."

Dann:Hi, Michael. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to finally be doing this. I know it's been a long time coming. I tolda lot ofpeople that I was coming on to do this, and they were a little concerned that you weren't feeling all right.I joke with you only because I've made it a schtick to disagree with you at times, but that'sreallybecause I respect the tremendous amount of work you've done for the industry, and weactuallyagree on much more than we don't.

Michael:No, I appreciate it.To me, we learn a lot more in the ways that we disagree than in the ways that wejustmutually, vigorously nod in agreement with each other.To me, indirectly, that's even part of the theme of what I'm hoping to delve into in the podcast, in the discussion today.

To me, there's this strange shared experience for almost anybody who's been in the business for more than about 20 years, which is if you go back to the late '90s, early 2000s, the RIA movementandjust even doing assets under management and holistic advice and planning was a relatively early stage nascent thing.Almost everybodywho wasdoing that had broken out of an insurance company or a brokerage firmbackin the 1980s or 1990s and launched their own thing, and then were convincing more people in the 2000s to come out of insurance and brokerage and try this RIA thing.

To me,there'sjustthis collective experience of almost everybody who had built a successful RIA firmdidnot start in an RIA.They started sellingproducts oftheinsurance or investmentvarietyand then, at some point,hadtransitioned to this world where they'regivingadvice andchargingfees for it.Butnowthat's been happening long enough that we have a new generation of advisorsnowwell into their 30s and into their early 40s that can be 15, 20-plus years in their career and haveactuallybeen in a fee-only advice capacity their entire career.

To me, that's a really unique distinction of new career tracks, new paths into the industry, and results in people that have a very different experience of what the industry is like, which can createinterestingdisagreementsandthat's the times that we and others get to have fun conversations of disagreement because that's what happens when people have diversity of views and diversity of perspectives and different experiences.

And so I think I'm excited today to start the discussion aroundreally, I guess, from your perspective, as someone that's spent a career in the fee-only world, how are career tracks emerging in different ways now than this path of old where you sold stuff and thenfigureout later how to charge fees for advice?

Dann's Start In Fee-Only Planning [5:57]

Dann:Yeah, thanks for that introbecausethatis still baffling to me that I've been in the fee-only space my entire career, and sometimes I take that for granted.I forget to tell clients that, of course, we're fiduciaries and, of course, we're fee-only, butI thinkit's a tremendous opportunity set now for advisors.

When I went to college, I did my undergrad degree in math,Iwent to grad school for economics, financialplanning was not a major that you could take, and now there's financial planning programs all across the country.AndI think thatthatjustsets up a generation of advisors for opportunities.Frankly, they willbe workingwith my generation of advisors and on teams with us.I think weget it a little bit moreandwe've been through the, you callitliteral and figurative hazing, that was financial planning a long time ago, and I'mjust tremendouslyexcited about the future in that regard.

Michael:So help us understand what this journey has been for you. How did you come to financial planning world if you were startingina math andeconbackground?What got you to the industry?

Dann:So the year was 2007, and thisisback when an inverted yield curve actually meant a recession and jobs were hard to find and I would takeany one.AndI did a lot of applying, and one was to a fee-only financial planning firm that at the time had $10 billion in assets under management and worked withhigh net-worthindividuals.And I hadabsolutelyno qualifications to be going to.

AndI was interviewed and hired by a gentleman in the New York areabythenameofJohn Lafferty.And Idowant to name names because Idobelieve in giving people their flowers.Andthere'sa lot of tremendous advisors out there who deserve to be recognized, and I've been fortunate to work with many of them.

SoI was hiredin 2007. And the New York practice had a business of producing your old-school 100-page financial plans for a major university, and that's a name I won't name, but for a segment of their professors, we produced financial plans.I think wecharged $6,000 for a financial plan at that time.It involved a few meetings. The university paid for it.Of course, it was imputed incometothe professors but they still got a pretty good deal.

And I was brought in tojustcrank financial plans.At thetimewe were using a DOS-based software, youcopy strings over,itwas proprietary.Some of our best planning spreadsheets were still in Lotus Notes. I had to move them over to Excel. But that was my first experience.And I had a tremendous boss and Johnwho, frankly, justlet me fail, whichisI thinkoneof the best ways to learn.Go, do this plan, give it a shot,bring itto meandI'll tell you why it's wrong.And I did a lot of that in 2007.

And then, of course, 2008 hit, and our other clients started to be muchmore needytoo,and wanted a lotmore meetings.And those clients were what we called flatfeeat the time.A lotof them paid $10,000, $20,000, $30,000 a year.I guess youwould call that a retainer nowbutwe just called it a fee.They paid six months upfront with a check and thensix monthswe reached out to them for another check.That was the business at that time.

Michael:Well, I guess that was how you get around the infamous "you have custody if you take fees more than six months in advance".Sobillthem every six monthsandthen you don't have a custody issue.

Dann:Yeah, and it's a little scary having half your annual revenue in checks that youhave totake to the bank and deposit, but that's howthings were done. There was no AdvicePay at that time.But that'sjustmy way of saying that this model, this fee-only model, andholisticfinancial planning model certainly existed then.It was alittlebit messierbutwe got by.

I think I've told you the story that at my first job I remember looking up some tax question, it was probably contribution limits or something and clicking Print on the page and it going to the printer and proceeding to use all the blue ink because somebody had not set a print style sheet on their website and taking that page to my boss and him saying, "What is this?" Of course, it wasNerd'sEye View.

Michael:Oh, nice. Yeah, we had a lot of blue background on that website then.

Dann:Yeah, andsothat's when I learnedthe lessonto always go to the IRC [Internal Revenue Code], and I still do that with my team.I don't want any secondary sources. It'sgot to be from the code ifyou're trying to tell me something about taxes.SoIthank you for that learning experience. It served me well.

Michael:Excellent.Help me understand this advisory firm.I think you said theywere$10 billion in AUM, which isa very big...that's a very big firm now.That was a very, very big firm in the 2000s. How big was the firm? How many advisors were there? Who were they serving? Just help us understand what a $10 billion firm circa 2007 looked like.

Dann:Yeah, itwas a bit of a dichotomy because there was aCalifornia office that was huge.There wasa very bigChicago office, and then the New York office was the smallest.It was, frankly,a partner, myself, and a support administrator.So you were getting thatbigfirm exposure because there was a committee for everything, and Itruemean everything, financial planning topics, estate planning, and then every investment class under the sun.And so you got thatbigfirm exposurebutwe were also very siloed.

And like I said, at that point, I'm doing 30, 40 financial plans a month plus serving high...there was this pipeline of professors who are often successfulandthey become clients and thenother high-net-worth individuals.So it was stillprettysectored to the high-net-worth space.At that time, frankly, high-net-worth people were the only ones who knew to go out and ask for fee-only advice and could negotiate around that.Sostilla pretty complex client base.

Michael:Sodid you say 30 to 40 plans a month?

Dann:Yeah.

Michael:That's the flow of new clients or that's existing as well?

Dann:That's the professor.There'sprobably 10 client meetings a monthandthenfollow-up.There'sprobably 10 new clientsa month, 10 follow-up meetings, updates, andthenother onboarding.

Michael:Interesting. You'recranking the plans in the planning software, in the DOS-plus spreadsheet-based softwareandthen John is out presenting them, or are yououtpresenting plans and meetings at this pointas well?

Dann:Yeah.Sofroma scale size,this comes tomynextchangeisthat I just had to be in the office all the time.Somebody had to take phone calls, deal with Schwab, I was still on Schwabat that time,andbe there.So it wasreallyrestricting my ability to be client-facingandIreallywanted to make a change theresoultimatelythat's why I changed firms andwent to joinanother RIA in 2009.They were looking for somebody with RIA experience. It started to suddenlybe knownthat there was an RIA way of doing thingsat that point.

Michael:So I'm trying to visualize this timeline.So youwere with this firmbasicallytwo years andchange, starting in 2007, leaving in 2009, and ground through a thousand-odd financial plans and updates over that time window.

Dann:Yeah.Probablymaybenot a thousand...You'rerevisiting a lot of them, andalsoit's '08, '09, so clients are calling, clients arewanting meetings.I wassleeping,not physically sleeping in the office, but there till 10:00, 11:00 at nightandstopping for Wendy's on the ride home and back at 7:00 in the morning the next day.There was plenty of work.And I think havingatime periodlike that in your career isjustsoincredibly valuablewhereyou're engrossing yourself in financial planning andjustfiguring it out.We're all young onceandthat's a great time to do it ifyou can.

Michael:Yeah, I had a similar stint for a couple of yearsalsoin my 20sina role where I wasjustcranking through and building plans.ThatroleIalso got to deliver plans, so Idid getthe client-facing part as wellbutjust a high volume of deep-dive planson a continuous basis.AndI thinkI got the proverbial 10,000 hours of experience to work towards mastery crammed in 2 or 3 years of workingridonkuloushours that I could do.I didn't have a lot of other...I didn't have a family yet. I didn't have a lot of other commitments, justput in the hours, got stuff done, got some decent raises, and got a mountain load of experience in a compressedtime periodbecause I got the opportunity, Igot the privilege of being at a firm that was growing fast and had a lot of volume of activity for me to get to learn and practice on.

Dann:Yeah,I thinkyour advisor wellness study mentions there's a correlation between experience and happiness for advisors.I would caveat that by saying that not allexperienceiscreated equal.It's notjustpurely in years, and for young advisors that get an opportunity to engross themselves in financial planning that way, I highly encourage it.I'm not trying to kill anybody's work-life balance here but when you have an opportunitysettojustwork on a lot of financial planning, I think you should wrap your arms around it.

Michael:Yeah, well, and we've been trying to drill into the data further.We'rea little bitlimitedjustbecause of the ways that we ask some of the questions in our surveys.We ask about overall industry experience andwe ask aboutclient-facing experience and we find thatwell-beingalongwithincomeissignificantly more correlated to client-facing experience than just general industry experience.So it's that pathway of getting in front of clients at some point. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to get theredayone. I do think there's some valueforspending some early time, I'll say, "just doing some of the back office operations and plan grinding work."But that means being there for 2 years, not being there for 10. At some point, that's slowing you down in progression.

Dann:For sure.

Gaining Additional Experience Serving High-Net-Worth Clients [18:29]

Michael:Sowhatwas the new role that you went to?

Dann:So I jumped over to a firm that was named RCL, it was the names of the partners, Roche, Cafaro, and Langham, and they were one of the firms, you probably remember when Sarbanes-Oxley hit, it launched a thousand RIAs out of accounting practices that no longer wanted what they called investment advisorybutit waslargelypretty deep holistic financial planningandthey no longer wanted that to affect their audit businessandso you had all these good sized RIAs that popped up from those practices.

And so this was a group out of Ernst & Young. E&Y said, "Take your clients and go."So they had a couplebillionin assets to kick things off with and knew what they needed to build an RIA.And I wasprobablyone of their first external,well, I was the first external person they brought in.And it's a lot of fun to build an RIA when you have assets and revenue, and you can dive in.And so I hitched on with them, andmy firstday in the officeI wasthrust into a client meeting and just "go, figure it out, and how can we improve this experience?"

Michael:So for those who aren't familiar,what werethese planning practices in accounting firms?What were they...yousaw RCLasthey came out.What were they doing? Who were they serving? What did that business look like?

Dann:Yeah, so that business was...I'll tell you my first challengedayone was our assets were at Bear Stearnsandyou had to find a solutionfor those.So it was likeactuallydoing due diligence on custodiansand lookingat the landscape and ultimately ending up at Schwabeven then.But from a planning standpoint, it was heavily tax-focused, as close as you can get to giving tax advice without giving tax advice, heavily estate planning. Clients…our average portfolio probably was a mean of $13 million but a median of $8 million or $9 million.Soprettyhigh net worth, Iwouldn't call it ultra-high net worth.Therewasa couple of $100 million relationships in there, but therewasa lot of $2 million and $3 million in theretoo.

Michael:And where did the clients come from? Where were they getting thesedecamillionaireclients, give or take a few?

Dann:Yeah, they werelargelyhandoffs from the accounting practice and word of mouth, and I definitely am biased from that experience in that our strategy was always just to service clients to the utmost and that that will yield referrals and growth.Obviously, that's not the most unique orevenfruitful new business development strategybut italways worked.And againbecause our minimums were high and the client base we were working with was complex, it was a way to stay in that environment.

And frankly, the work wasincredibly rewarding, I joke, butin those early days,it was a lot of fun.You'll hear me say I'm a stereotypical New Yorkerandwe New Yorked very hard in those days, worked in the office till 10:00, 11:00, and then went to the bar and talked about estate planning for another two hours and got up and did it again the next day. But there was a lot there to learn and a lot of complex strategies. You remember 2012 and the estate tax collapse at the end of the yearanddoing all the estate planning you can at the end of the year. Sojusta lot of planning over the years. I joke and say I remember when the estate tax exemption was a coupleofmillion bucks.ButI thinkit will be again too somedayprobablyandthere will be a lot of planning to do there.

Michael:So what was the role when you went there initially? Was it meant to be similar to the prior firm where you're grinding financial plans for the partners, for the senior advisorstothengo outand present and deliver, or did it look different at this stage?

Dann:It was very much "you've got to produce plansandyou've got to be the owner of the materials for the deliverables for client meetings."Butalso it wasa full RIA firm. And so I do think that the E&Y experience reallyhelpsthere in that they knew what they needed.We knew we needed a performance reporting solution. I think we were client 14 or something on Black Diamond.

I remember sitting in meetings andsaying"I just really need a risk-return scatter plot."Not that I invented thatbutI need to see that in my performance reportsanddrawingit on a piece of paper andscanningit over to Black Diamondandyou get a performance report from them.That's their off-the-shelf report these days. That's table stakes. But at that time, it was a lot of knowing what we needed and going and getting it, which was exciting.It wasknowing we needed an investment committeebuthow do we do that?Iwas able to learna lot about doing due diligenceandhavingan investment committeeandkeeping an investment solutions list fora very largeasset base.

Michael:How big was the asset base, and how many clients were there in this firm, if you remember?I know this is a couple of years agonow.

Dann:You test my memory herebutI thinkprobablywhen I started, it was about a little over $1.5 billionandit wasprobably 150 to 180 clients.

Michael:Okay. How many people were there?

Dann:That is the incredible part. It was very lean.I think wewere eight people the entire time I was there, for most of the time I was there.Startedto grow at the end. It's just an incredible, incredible team. I miss them deeply. It was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. I had suchan incredibleteam.And frankly, that's what I've carried throughout my careerisa real team approach because when you work as a team, you can be leaner and still serve clients incredibly well.

Michael:What didfeeschedule look likeat the timewhen you were working with clients this big?

Dann:Yeah, it was similar to what it is today.1% on the first couple millionandthen tiered down 75 bps [basis points], 50 bps, finished probably 20 bps over $50 million or something like that. Those are good problems to have too.

Michael:Yes, yes, very much so. Interesting.This is a firm that might have hadlike$10 millionofrevenue and they're supporting it with 8 people.

Dann:Yeah, revenuewas probably half that because you make a lot of deals over time on fees.

Michael:Okay.There's the fee schedule andthenthere's the negotiated amount from certain large clientsthatcut some deals.

Dann:For sure.And we're all guilty of itbut, yes,that was the printed fee schedule.

Michael:Okay.What were theroles on the team?What were the seats on the proverbial bus here?

Dann:I will say that we had an incredible...We were very fortunate to have a dedicated operations team that kept us running andkept uslooking good.My director of operations there, Mary,justsaved me countless timesandI jokebutI developed this.She would always say, "Dann, if I have to ask you to get a new signature from your client, you act as if I just kicked your cat because I just came from the world of do not hassle clients. Let's find a new solution. Our clients are incredibly busy. They're executivesandthey don't have time to be resigning paperwork."

So they kept us going and got everything perfect on the first pass, which was very valuable to our clients.AndlikeI said,therewasthree partners splittingup the client base.Again,bigrelationships get multiple advisors, and then there was always a junior person like myselfalsoonthat relationship.

Michael:And so were there three of you, one for each partnerin aone-on-one groupings, or were you more of a shared resource, a shared support that went outwithall the different partners?

Dann:I was a shared resource, and at the best of times, maybe therewasthree of me, and at the worst of times, there was one of me. And I joke, but havingactuallyexperienced it in my career, I've had as many as 130 clients I was serving and as few as 40.AndI would like to be somewhere in the middle, but 130 sustainable and very complicated clients. But I had no outside life either at that point.

Why A Lack Of Partnership Opportunity Led Dann To Start HisOwnFirm [28:49]

Michael:So did the role shift and evolveasyou were at RCL? How long were you there, and didthe roleshift and evolve as you went?

Dann:So I was there a decade.

Michael:Okay. So you were there quite a while.

Dann:And it's a tale as old astimeI can say.I know I experienced it, mybusiness partner David has experienced it,athousand other advisorsexperiencedit.The promise of equity was always there. Ten years was the target. And I was always singularly focused on that. And that was my goal. And Iobviouslybecame a better advisor. I developed there. I thought I was working down that road.It's a hard space to be a revenue producerinwhen you're working with clients of that size, but again, I alwaysjustfocused on the client experience and improving that.

You can tellbecause we're sitting here having thisconversation,that the partnership promise never materialized.There was, oh, you canbe promotedto being a principal. And how much equity does that have?Stillnone.Sothatwaslargelythe impetus for megoing and startingmyownfirm.Alsojustbeing in a very, very high-stress environment.What had once been fun can alsostartto take its toll on you when itdoesn't have the samefuture laid out in front of it.SoIultimately left. They were very shortlythereaftersold.Theyare now part of Wealth Enhancement Group, I believe.So that roll-up happens everywhere. So that was 2019.

Michael:So what was important about equity to you that this was a hot-button issue?

Dann:I'll say, honestly, looking back on myself,I don't know what was important about it.Iwas toldit wasimportant. Everythingwas presentedto me in the framework of when you're a partner, you will get this, or when you're a partner, you will understand how this works.I think alot of people are out searching for autonomy for the sake of it.Like I said, I had a tremendous team around me. I was very fortunate. I had greatexperienceand some more challenging experiences, of course.

And so it just hit a point where you can onlybe cominghome at 10:00 at night and have to sit in the dark for 20 minutes and sob to yourself because of the stress of the day.I was fortunate to have an incredibly supportive spouse who ismuch,much smarter than me.That's irrespective of her decision to marry me.She was the firstoneto recognize, hey,this is unsustainableandyou're putting a lot of yourself into this.That was a turning point for me.

Michael:And you were putting a lot in because that was the perceived path to partnership?

Dann:Yes. It was just what more can I do because that's what I thought I had to do.Let mejustgive a bigger and bigger piece of myself because I have to have equity.AndI will say,to that point, for advisors out therethatmaybe arein the same boat, being a support advisor or an advisor at a larger company is not abadroleto be in.There's great work tobe doneout there.Andpartnership isnotforeverybodybecause with partnership comes finding clients and other challenges.

Michael:I was going to ask,wasthe firmgiving you a roadmap, like you need to do these things to become a partner, or was itnot that clear?They were just saying, "We'll consider partnership at some point,"and so you're trying to find whatever you can do to prove yourself and make them notice.

Dann:I'llsay therewas a pathbutgoalposts were often moving.And again, we're in New York, so you can say, "Well, what revenue have you generated because your office is this size and your team's office space is this sizeandwe got to pay for real estate."So there's a lot of moving pieces there. And frankly, again, I don't think that the whole time the plan was never to give mepartnership. I don't discredit that.Ijustthink that things change over time.

Michael:They had never introduced a partnersoin alllikelihoodthey weretrying to figure it out as they were goingas well.

Dann:For sure.And again,there's a generation of advisorsthat haveexperienced this now and I think our industry is better off for it.

Michael:Better off for which part?

Dann:The advisors that have experienced it are committed to doing something different in the future. I knowpersonallyI am.AndI thinka lot ofyoung advisorsare focusedon the equity piece instead of having a bit of faith that things are improving.

Michael:So did the role continue to be oneinsupporting the partners and their relationships all the way through, or was there some point where you had your own clients or had togodo business development for your own clients?What shifted?

Dann:It took a long time, and I will saybecauseit wassuchahigh service level.So clients themselves were getting multiple partnersonthem.And it was very team-basedbutprobably at the end of my tenure is when I started to have myownclient relationships, sitting in meetings being the only one there, and that willnevernot be scary.That is terrifying to this day.My stomach flips the morning of a client meeting, andI thinkthat's an important message.It's okay to be nervous.

Michael:As you're 15 to 20 years in.

Dann:Yeah. Exactly.I thinkthat'swhat makes this business rewarding and exciting to do after all these years is that it's still scary.There'sstill something to learnandthere's challengesandit'snevergoing to beentirelycomfortable.

Michael:Sodid you want to have yourownclients if itwas scary and feltawful? Were you happy to continue working alongside the partners and their clients?I'm just wondering whatdrove the shift.You wanted more clients. They pushed you towards clients.

Dann:Yeah.I think, again, theytell you you shouldbe becoming an advisor who is self-sustaining.They can do it all on their own. They can go into meetings with a $50 million client and have all the answers. I'm still trying to be there to this daybutit's a fun journey.Again,I think thatthat journey is the rewardandthis industry can continueto challengeyou.I'm gladthatI pushed myself out of my comfort zoneinto beingthe lead advisor.I'm thankful that I have had a team and still have a team that can help me along the way.But again, thesethings,theyhappen naturally over timeandthere are certain expectations.You'll constantly have tobe growing, and at some point,that'sthe only way to grow is to become the lead.

Michael:What came next? Was there some moment of truth transition moment like, okay, I'm here for my partnership, and when they say no, you say thenI'mdone here, I'm out the door? Did it come to some crystallizing moment like that?

Dann:There was a crystallizing moment. There was a conversation that, frankly...I worked for a woman for many years, Barbara Roche, who's a tremendous, tremendousadvisor. You've never seen her on any top advisor list but had been doing it for 30-plus years and was incredible.When I frankly announced my plans, she said, "That makes sense. I would do the same in your shoes."And that was frankly very validating.

Michael:Meaning your plan to say you were leaving?

Dann:Plan to go.

Michael:To go.

Dann:To be my own,start myownfirm, which is...I don't have an entrepreneurial bone in my body, Michael.It was never in the cards for me, butat some point,I started to see it as an option.I have a business partnernow, David Wilson, who helped me see that.He's much more entrepreneurial than me. But when I did it, it was just me. I leftandI opened up shop one day with Sincerus. Again, a part of my anxiety and troubles with the whole thing, I left the entire client base behind.Ihad nohead start.I started at square zero again, zero AUM,andopened the doors and said, "Please, somebodycomework with me. I have a bunch of experience."

Michael:So help me understand more just getting to this point where you're convinced enough that partnership isn't coming, that you're willing totake a leapto go out on your own, that you feel so compelled to do it even though you don't have an entrepreneurial bone in your body, yet here you are launching a firm.Helpme understand what was going on in your experiences or what was changing in your head that such major shifts happened for youinIguesswhat seems like relatively quick succession, maybeit was a very long time building up.

Dann:There was a point where an advisor had left the firm and, frankly,in doingsohad dropped the ball on some client stuff. I stepped up and said, "How can I help? I know this is important to the firm. What can I do?"Iwas toldhe had this one client, maybe it was $25 million, $30 million. "It's important. We need you to take ownership of it."

So I rolled up my sleeves.I did everything I could tofigure outwhat waswrong,whatneeded tobe done.They needed some serious estate planning work done.I prepared andIflew out to the West Coast for a two-day intensive meeting with this clientwherewejustrevisited everythingtop to bottom.I thought itwas some of the best work I've done.It wasreallyhardto spend 48 hours with these clients and then fly back. But I was proud of the work I did. When Igot back, the client called the office and said, "Can you have the partner call me back?"So the partner called them backand rangme up and said, "Could you just listen in on this call?They're your client now."

So I listened in on the callandthe call proceeded to be the clientbasicallysaying, "Hey, all these mistakes that the previous advisor made, I think they're Dann's fault. And while Dann seems great, he's too much of a New Yorker. He talks too fast. And look at all these balls he dropped."And that was an opportunity for somebody, frankly,to stick up for me and say, "No, Dann's doing great work."And instead, they let the blame fall on me for that. And afterward said, of course…

Michael:Even thoughinreality, you were the deliverer of bad news of the prior advisor's mistakes that you were tryingto notthrow that person under the bus for.

Dann:Exactly.And that was an eye-opening moment becauseafterwardsthey said, "Of course, it's not you, Dann.You're great. Youdidn't…"

Michael:But they didn't actually stand up for you in front of the client after ironically inviting you onto the phonecallto hear them not stand up for you.

Dann:Horrible practice of having somebody listening on phone calls. I don't recommend it. You never know what they're going to hear. But that was a moment where I realized I was an advisor as a commodityandif I wasn't going to stand up for myself, nobody was. And frankly, that opened my eyes.And when you do that, you start to notice that the Focus Financials are coming into the conference roomandthese meetings arebeing had, and you say, "Well, this place is for saleandI'm an asset that's being sold along with it.I'm not actually participating here."So that's the moment I remember as a turning point, but it was one in along,long list.

Michael:Interesting.And so itsounds like that was much of the impetus forwhyleaving.So why not go to another firm?

Dann:I had thought about it. I had interviewed all around New York. I knew all the major players.AndI felt that at that time andatmy age,IfeltI had one shot to rebuild my client base if I was going to give it my all.And I just took stock of myself and said, "If you're going to go back to working all these hours and giving every piece of yourself to something, at least retain it at the end. Don't give yourself a chance to make the same mistake."And again, I have the world's most supportive spousewhoalsosupported that vision and encouraged me to do something for myself.

How Dann Built His Firm From The Ground Up [44:53]

Michael:So itsounds like it was a version of, "I've still got gas in the tank. I'm ready to keep workingreallyhard, but I can't do this forever at this pace. So if I've got one more 'work really hard while I'm young and have energy' stint, I'd rather do it for a thing thatI'mgoing to own at the end."

Dann:Exactly.And again, I had no desireeverto be an entrepreneur, but at the time, the writing was on the wall having had that experience that so many advisors have had.

Michael:How old were you at this point?

Dann:I must have been 34 at that point.I stillfelt that I couldgive it another go.

Michael:And so were you building savings,reserves to do this transition? Was your spouse in a roleor you couldlive off a spouse's salary for a while while you were building?How were youjustpreparing financially for this much of a change?

Dann:Yeah. I joke and say that I started my firm and got married in the same month, butthe reality isI got health insurance and started my firm in the same month. That wasobviouslya big piece to solve, but I hadsaved. The one thing about my prior life is the compensation was very, very good. And there are roles out there doing that where the compensation is incredible. You almost get "golden handcuffed"to them because you're doing pretty all right for financial planning. And I saved, and that became the first year of Sincerus.That was the first year ofjust spendingdownmy entire life savings to start this firm andtoget going.But yes, it was something thatI'd provided myself an opportunity for, for sure.

Michael:So can I ask,whatdidcompensationlooklike in these roles where you're working with these high dollar firms,high dollarclients?

Dann:Yeah.My last year probably, this is5years ago,$300,000to $400,000 a year.It's good for being a W-2 employee.

Michael:Soyou were effectivelyW-2 employee at that point,W-2 employee servicing clients,very, very bighigh dollarclients. So this is high stakes, high complexity, a whole bunch of revenue you're responsible for.

Dann:Yeah. But again, it's a commodity and something they can hire out. These 50, 100 billion dollar RIAs can always hire that role.

Michael:So what was the actual plan for getting clients and launching the firm when you made the decision commitment, like, "I'm not going to try to take any of the clients with me?"

Dann:It was a clean break. I had a non-solicit.I honored it to theletter,again,because I needed a stress reset.I was at an incredibly stressed point. And it was a lot of projecting self-confidence that was not there, I assure you. It was riddled with anxiety and listening to people around me who told me I had the skill set as an advisor.

David Wilson is my business partner now. He was not when I started the firm. We can talk about thattoo. But he was an advisor that I met.I met David at the gym doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu before it wascool,before Zuckerberg made it cool, or whatever.But we met doing jiu-jitsu. He choked me out. I woke up, wewere business partners. It's not really. We were friends for seven or eight years. We traveled together.He worked at a different RIA where he was alsobeingpromisedequity.

For many years, we had lunches and just, "What are you doing for clients here? How do you approach this?"I got to know him as a friend and knowthathe was doing incrediblework for clients.Thatreallyinspired me. He was telling me, "Hey, you can do this. You cangostart yourownfirm. You're a good advisor. If I wereyouI would do this."Hedefinitelygave me a nudgeprobablybecause he knew wewere going tobe business partners someday. I justtook a leap.

Michael:What wasthe tactic to go getclients from day one?What did you do? You've hung your shingle. Congratulations. Now what?

Dann:The same thing everybody does. I went on the internet. I did all the social media I could. I tapped my natural networks, family, friends,myspouse's family friends.I think thefirst weekof, okay,I'mregistered in New York, let's go, a lead came in off of NAPFAanditwas areallygood one.I said, "This is going to be so easy."Then it wasn't. The first year was tough. It wasvery hard. I spent a lot ofitworking on my processes and getting ready for when I knew Iwas going toget at-bats.

Michael:Where did the at-bats eventually start to come from?

Dann:I started doing areally, reallygood job for clients. I'll say this. Ourbiggestsource of clients is still referrals. I credit my partner David with this. Fast forward to 2020. We all know what happens in 2020. David calls me and says, "Hey, I want tocomejoin you. I'm in a similar situation. Let me pluck out some of my clients and come join you."He had an okay book of business [$30 million of AUM]andhe came over and injected some life into the firmandwe just started working itreallyhard.

I credit David with teaching me that, frankly, it's about community.That's really ourapproach with clientsisthat ourclients are people that we care about deeply,that we're very excited to be associated with.In that environment, all boats will rise. New York City is incredibly small when youactuallymake it that way and when you get to know it. It's a lot of our natural network and just doinga goodjob for people.It's no magic faucetof...we have a blog.I go on podcasts,we do things, wemake ourselves seen, but there is no one lever that we're flippingforfindingclients.

What Dann's Firm Looks Like Today [52:41]

Michael:Is there a particular clientele that you're working with and going after? Is thisstillsimilar to working with the high net worth, $10 million, $20 million-plus clients from the RCL days, or does it look different now?

Dann:Yes.The first thing I'll say is whenI left RCL, my average client age was 76 yearsold.A year later, it was 36 years old. So very different. But I saw in my clients the same thing that I ultimately saw in my high-net-worth clients.AndI'llsaythere'sthree parts to our client demographic.The first is that our clients areincredibly smart. And frankly, they could be DIYers. And that's scary to say as an advisor, but they are allverycapable of being DIYers.The second part is that they're also incredibly busy anddon'thavetime for that.And the third part is that theyare people thatare generally receptive to advice. And that's where we come in.

I think that my clients knowbasedon my 17 years of experience, David, who's much like you, has a million letters after his name, that when they come to us with a problem, we are going to work it thoroughly and find a solution for them that is also respectful of their time. And so I don't love niches.I'mpretty vocallyagainst them.Butyou could saywe have an affinity niche and that our clients are peoplethat sharevalues with us andthat wecare about deeply.AndI thinkthey know that,andthey knowthat we are just a member of their team.And when you have a team working for you, you want to share that with the people you care abouttoo.

Michael:So whatisthe fee model and service model look like? What do you ultimately do for these clients? And how do you charge them now?

Dann:Sure. So right now, the team is myself, David, Valerie, and Samantha, who just joined us.We are all CFPs and wearealldoingholistic financial planning.AndI thinkthatanimportantpart of our service model is that youare always gettingaccess to all of us if needed.And while I might be the person you are talking to most frequently, it comes back to my relationship with Davidthatwewouldjustsit around and talk about financial planning.And that is what we do as a firm.And wemeet regularly andarealwayshelpingeach other.

The fees arelargelyAUM. And we do have retainer clients.Wedohave a retainer fee, but that is just a toolfor us.Maybe that is10% of our client base.That is a tool for peoplethat areprobablygoing tobe AUM fees someday.AndIbelievestronglythat Icanwellrecognize the problems with the AUM model, but it is good enough.AndI thinkno industry talks about fees as much as ours does.AndI thinkthat is a real detriment to us as advisors, the sitting around and tweaking with fees and constantly revisiting them.It isa point of frictionthat we are creatingthat does not need to be there.

I feel strongly on a "Success Podcast"that the recipe for success isvery simple. If you are doing honest work, which we are all very fortunate to be doing in this industry, you are very persistent about itandyou surround yourself with good people, success will follow.And that isbasicallyjustour model.And the fees are the end product.

Andsoyes, we arelargelyAUM.Ourfees,theystart at 1%andtheytier down just as the old ones in my world used to.AndI thinkthat is probably average.You can tell me if I am wrong, butI think1% and tiering down isprobablyaverage in our industry.And IdonotthinkI amthe average advisor in our industry.I thinkI am above average.And so I feel good about that.

Michael:Do you ever think about raising the fee? I've got to ask.Above averageadvisor charging anabove averagefee?

Dann:It is interesting.SoIdo genuinely believe thatI am a better advisor thanI waslast year, and I plan to be a better one next year.And for that reason,I do not thinkmy fee should go down.I am not arguing for it to go up, butI do notthinkit should go down.In the RIA space, it is hard. There are these hurdles. Our technology costs are rising every year.Even if you are a great advisor, you have a 1% or 2% attrition rate, right,like your clients pass away or something happens.And you have to take care of your team.So there isbasicallyan inherent 5% hurdle of growth every year youjusthave to achieve.And maybe the AUM modelsoftensthat in some years andmakesita littleeasieronyou.Some yearsitdoes not. Some yearsitcontributes to that hurdle.But why fight it if itis allowingus to spend more timeonplanning?

Michael:So where does the retainer fee kick in in practicethen?What do you charge, and where does it apply?

Dann:Yeah,I thinkour minimums now are $7,000 a year when you have a clientwho ismaking $700,000 a year but is still in their accumulation phase.I think youhave said that1% fee should be a no-brainer.Sostartingthem on a retainer and building up their investable portfolio.

Dann's Hands-On Approach To Investment Planning [59:20]

Dann:Ido thinktoothatthere isthis theme of advisors saying, "Oh, investments are where I add the least amount of valueandI just want to put in a model or never discuss it."Iam never going tobe some great beat-the-market active investor, but investments are such akeydeterminant ofa lot ofother behavioral componentstofinancial planning.I think it is a big disservice to ignore them ortojusttryand sweep them under the rug.And so we meet them head-on.We arenot afraid to haveinvestment discussions with clients.And again, that is just one of the many services we offer.

Michael:Sohowdoes the investment management process work for you? Are you different portfolios for every client, specific to the client? Do you build and run centralized models? Are you outsourcing? How are youactuallyhandling the investment side of practice?

Dann:Yeah.So I call back probably too much to my prior experience, but wedo have model portfoliotargets,if youwill,because Iam a big believerin modern portfolio theory.Andwe have ourownforward-looking capital market assumptions, put a lot of work into it,buildourownmodel portfolios.And that is thekeydeterminant, right,of the variance and returns.It is just getting the asset allocation right.I sound like a CIMA professor now, but basic modern portfoliotheory,stillbelieveingetthe asset classes right.

Theimplementation,that canbe very client-driven.A lot of our clients reflect their values or beliefs in theirportfolio. They have legacy positions.Soinsome ways, it is bespokeandwe're trading around the clients' desires, but at the core, we are just worried about getting the risk allocation right.AndI always say thattakethe risk tolerance and any model portfolio can work for you.Youjusthave to stick with it andyou just have tobe comfortable with it.AndI thinkthatisour job is to explain the investing experience and make clients comfortable so when you do get the inevitable pullback, they are not shocked.

Michael:Sohelp me understand thisa little furtherof just what standardizedthe model level and what is different at the client level.So yeah, just help me understand a little bit more what client-driven implementation differences become in practice.What do you do? What will you still not do?

Dann:Yeah, you can imagine thata lotof my clients have ESGpreferencesor values-based preferences or even say…I encourage my clients to say, "I havegotan investing idea."Okay, well, it is my job as the advisorto not letyou blow out your risk profile by your investing idea.You get to allocate 1% or something to thatandwe are going to put it in your portfolioandwe are going to track itandyou are going to have an investment thesis and a strategy to get out, and, frankly, make it not very fun for them.

But if the clientbeingable to make an investment decision and experience that is going to make them make smarter decisionsonthe rest of their investing world, then yes, let's do it. Is it more heavy lifting for us? Sure. But send me the prospectus on the crazy LP your friend pitched you and if you really want to go forward with it, I just got to protect you on the downside.

Michael:Interesting.Soyoudo not necessarilytry to talk clients out of all these.You just try to talk them down to a small enough allocation that it won't hurt if this blows up on them and then basically let them learn their lesson.

Dann:Yeah. And again, I have been doing thisalong time.In my experience, they almost always change their tune, or they do not, and that is fine too, or wejustkeep taking 1% little bets.

Michael:Soyoumake them hold the thing, explain, and write outwhatthe strategy or thesisis.Iam assuming youjustbasicallywant to document what they said so you can put it in front of them later.And thenthey have to havesomeexit plan.Is that just like so...

Dann:If you arebeingarealinvestor, right, youhave a thesisandyou have a...if I am buying an individual holding, there is a price at which I will sell, right? Or I change my thesis.Sojustprinciples of investing and bringing them back to them.So it is a lot of education, and this goes back to my clients are incredibly intelligent.My job isjustcommunicatingwith them in a way that they will understand andwillresonate with them.

Michael:And mechanically, does thisactuallygo in their portfolio or...

Dann:Oh, absolutely. It is changing the risk profile of their world.

Michael:Okay.So it isnot like you putit in some side portfolio, held away, not held away, butself-managedaccount thatthis wrapsdirectly into the portfolio itself.

Dann:And ifI need to exclude it from billing, so be it.

Michael:Do you get issues where it messes with the...I'm just envisioning trying to run performance reports if you do that and having their stuff mixed in with "your stuff"and at the risk of they have bad investment results because they hadbadinvestment results, but they say, "Dann, your portfolio is not doing well,"and then we have to get into, no, my portfolio…

Dann:I would love to have…

Michael:To find your addition screwed it up.

Dann:Yeah. I'd love to have that...I spent a lot of years talking about investment performance first and foremost. We don't do that anymore. It's later in the presentation, but I nevershy away fromit. If a client's mad about performance and that's what they want to talk about,well, thenwe have to sit down and talk about that because that is an emotion that they're feeling that is affecting their financial picture.And I think just saying, "Oh, you should buy VOO [Vanguard S&P 500 ETF] and shutup"discredits a lot ofwhat the client experience is.

Dann's Agile Financial Planning Approach [1:06:20]

Michael:So thenwhatdoes this look like on the planning side of the process? If I say, "Dann, all this sounds great, I'dlike to come on board and become a client,"what's the actual planning process you take folks through?

Dann:So we have our standardized planning topics where we...first quarter, right now, all we're talking about is taxes, right?In the fourth quarter, we'llbe talking about open enrollmentandlossharvestinganda catch-all.The second quarter is when we talk investments, which is rebalancing. Are you maxing your 401(k)s? What are your 401(k) investment options? And the third quarter is a wild card. That's when we can do estate planning or insurance reviews.It's aprettysimple model.Clients' lives don't even fit that simple calendar. They come at you when somethingrisesto their attention.

And that's alot of our business is just being very responsive to clients. And in those times,very high touch. Let's just hop on a call and solve it. I tell clients, "If you wake up in the middle of the night and there's a dollar sign keeping you up, send me an email and go back to sleep and we'll get a time on the calendar to solve it."

And sotheinvestments and financial planning, there's no way to separate them.They're all your world at all the time. And so that's our day-in and day-out model.Personally,I leanintobeing very agileonmy financial planning, coming from the days of delivering a 100-page plan, which everybody loves to say.Nowwedon't do the 100-page plan.But at the same time, a very rigid schedulethat they have to go throughthat ultimately isequal to a 100-page plan.And so we are very agile. Let's identify what the pain points are in your world, and let's do some sprints.

And I'm stealing from Roger Whitney here, I'm sure, but let's do some sprints and, frankly, then youare going tobe burned outandwe'll just fall into a regular cadence where we will continually iterate on this.And that will be your living, breathing financial plan over time. And it will address your needs as they come up. Andultimatelyit will be robust.

But it drives me crazy to have a 35-year-old clientand go outand run a Monte Carlo projection for them. Nothing could be more inaccurate, right?AndI present it to themandI have to say, "The only thing I'm certain about is that your life will not play out the way this projection goes."But we're using it as a decision tool.

Sothat's the push and pull in my world every day,isthat I don't want to be very rigid in the process, but I also want to be incredibly responsive to clients.That might be very, verylong emails sometimesbutit's whatever they need.And I'll say this,somethingI've learned about myself is that the way Ilearn, and you probably have some experience with this, isIlearnthrough reading and talking.Talking is my best way to learn.But that'snottrue forevery client.Some people are video people. If you sent me a video, you'd be getting fired. I'm not watching a video. Butsomepeople, that's how they learn. And so it's trying to identify that and come to people in the way that communicates best for them.

Michael:Soit feels likeyou've got this default client service calendar with some structureto it.Q1 taxes, Q2 investments, Q3 wild card, open clients' choice, and then Q4 into open enrollments and loss harvesting because you've got folks in workingyearsso there's a lot of open enrollment discussions. So is the default a quarterly meeting cadence where you're getting into these, or are these check-ins with the clients about the topics?Or is thismostlybehind-the-scenes work you doandthen youjustreach out to them and let themknow,we were analyzing and thinking about you, hereare some stuff that we figured out and recommend.How do you operationalize this?

Dann:It's still evolving because I came fromthe worldwhere it was always quarterly. Frankly, you mailed a client a performance report of their portfolio and asked them for a meetingat the same timeon calendar quarters. And that just doesn't work for everybody's life, especially when they're in their working years. It's great for retirees. But I tell my clients, "I would love tobe meetingwith you quarterly. I am going to reach out. And if you say, 'No, I don't want to see you,'my feelings aren't hurt."Twice a year I'm going to say wereallygot to meet, but in the interim, I'm unlimited available, and that is more often than nottheway we're communicating is like, "Something came up, let's do this.Let's get together."

I have also been a very big vocal opponent of "surge meetings".It was from the start. Having been an advisor for a long time, if I have two client meetings a day, that's great. The third client meeting of the day, there might start to be some diminishing returns. And if I'm having four, that fourth client is not getting the best version of me. And so I always try to manage that because all my clients deserve the full best attention of me.

Michael:And so what is the overall size and scope of the firm then? How many clients are you serving?

Dann:So the total firm,I think we're at about $165 million of AUM now.It's about 150 households. You can infer the average size there. Like I said, a core base in New York, a lot ofclients in California and all over the country.

Michael:And howdoesthis split ormanageamongst your team? Are some of these your clients and some of them David's? Are they split across the four of youthatare on payroll?Is it like you have themandthen other people support you? Whoactuallyleads what?

Dann:I thinkthere's the typical David and myselfare recognizedas the personprobablywhobrought them in, and we are never handing clients off.SoI thinkthere's an expectation that we're there, we're the lead.But like I said, everything's a team solution. And our biggest clients are getting both David and me. And if they don't know they are, they are because we're constantly talking through situations.And so there's a mix ofjustwhohasthe experience,who can research this.And like I said, we're very fortunate to have the team we have. Again, I continue to be in a placein my lifewhere other people make me look good.

How Sincerus Grows Through Client Referrals [1:14:32]

Michael:And doyou feel like you guys have capacityat this point?Are you approaching capacity limitations?

Dann:As every firm does, we've got some rub wherenot every client isthe perfect fit client.Istillthink we dohave capacity.We're still taking new clients. We don't do it at the rate that some firms do, where we just say, "Let's turn the faucet on and catch everything."There might be a waitlist at times because wehave a commitmentto our existing clients,and thatis always first and foremost.And so that service has to come first. And we're not a catch-all for new business.

Michael:How do you decide when to put a waitlist in? When does thatactuallykick in?

Dann:I wish we had a goodsystematic way fordoing it. It's looking at the calendar and asking people how they feel and what their workload feels like, and a lot of trying people management here.

Michael:And how do you explain it to prospects?

Dann:Largely, again, because most of our referral network or most of our growth is coming from referrals, they understand. They're being brought in andbeingtold, "Hey, this group has done a great job for me. They understand why that would be in high demand."It's not a strike while the iron's hot situation where they're interviewing three or four advisors. You've got that higher introduction.

Michael:You make an interesting point because I feel like fora lot ofadvisors, there's this feeling of, if this came to me from a referral, I have to drop everything and serve the person because it came from a referral. I don't want to piss off the referral source that they sent me someoneandthen I couldn't take them and do the work right away. So I'm struck that you frame it from almost the exact opposite manner for the same reason. Yeah, it's a referral, so who better to understand? We do focused, good work for people, and you might have to wait your turn because we do focused, good work for people. They'll trust that more than anyone because theywere referredin, and that is consistent with being referred to a high-quality practitionerissometimes you can't get in right away.

Dann:Yeah.I think that mostof my clients, no offense, would have preferred that I was working on their issuesthanonboarding their friends.They wouldn't want to get it the other way."Oh, I'm sorry, I can'tget toyour needs right now because I'm working on new business."

Michael:So then I still have to ask andcome backto this question.I feel like mostadvisors try to go through referrals.And I don'treally know anyone that says, "Oh, I provide below-average service, but it's managed to work for me."Everybody says they provide above-average service.Clearly,not literally everyone can, wecan't all be above-average drivers, but we all seem to put ourselves in a position where we're providing above-average service for a reasonable fee.Andnot everybody drivesthe level of referral activitythat youseem to bedriving.So you've livedtheindustry a long time now.Do you have any sense as to what'sgoing on in yourworld,that more referrals seem to shake out than what happens with other advisory firms?

Dann:So if Iwasto give myself one superpowerclaimingthat I have a superpower, which is pretty audacious,butmy superpower is that I'm just incredibly interestedbypeople. I love interacting with them.And so any other advice I give, if you don't love people,thenit's probably uselessto you.But I am so enamored with my clientsandI love to sit andhearthemtalk abouttheir interests.

And I have a client who loves building canoes. I assure you, I, Dann RyaninNew York Cityisneverbuildinga canoe, but I could listen to him talk about it for two hours. And that is probably just the depth of the relationships we have. AndlikeI said, this sense of community where all boats rise.I say that it's just referrals and wedon't have a real marketing strategy, but we do things,we doevents.We host roundtables with business owners or with other people in thewealthcommunity. We're having a client happy hour next week, whichis terrifying tome. I could never imagine doing that in myownworld.Putting clients in a room together withalcohol,noway that ends well, but it does for us because we've cultivated this space that, frankly, we were very fortunate to have found our way into.

What Surprised Dann The Most On His Journey [1:20:06]

Michael:So asyou reflect on this journey overall, what surprised you the most about building your own advisory business after10-plusyears in the employee world before you made a transition and actually launched on your own?

Dann:I think that itcontinues to be challenging.And I mean this in the best way. I think a lot of young advisors can get caught in the new shiny thing because, as you say, they've achieved some degree of mastery or some proficiency, and again, no offense here, Michael, that they want to launch a tech product or a coaching service or some other advisory-adjacent thing, instead of honing in on, how can I become a better advisor? Which is scary.I'mstill challenged by it.

Ijustrecently putover the door in my officethe quote from AFC Richmond and Ted Lasso.Their motto is "Gradarius Firmus Victoria,"which, despite being pretty shaky Latinisa good message of just slow, steady victory. Keep showing up, keep doing the work, and you'll continue tobe rewarded. And I find that very surprising.

The Low Point For Dann On His Journey [1:21:34]

Michael:Sowhatwas the low point for you on this journey?

Dann:Frankly, I would like to believe that it may not even be behind me.That excitesme,that there will be more peaks and valleys and that I'll have to dig myself outfromfor my career.And I'm somebody, it's probably come through in this that struggles with tremendous anxiety, and my clients have to put up with it. I'm just a stereotypical millennial. Anxiety rules everything around me. And so you see my nervous energy, but that's three or four hours into the anxiety where Iam doneall my prep, and maybe it projects this confidence at some point, but I assure you, it's just me working through thisandit drives thegoodwork I do. And so some of that was self-inflicted, sure, going out on my own and questioning, did I even know what I'm doing? And you've really pushed me harder than I've ever thought on those questions because there wasn't a lot of why behind it.

Michael:It was just a leap.

Dann:It was a leap. And sometimes those are the best leaps.

Michael:And asI'mstill struck and the anxiety that you talk about wasn't a blocking point on that for you.

Dann:No, I think that anxiety is an incredible tool if you can harness it andpointit in the right direction.And thisgoes to your wellness study. Just as we age we become more mindfulourselvesand able to harvest these parts of our personality. And when you have a very rewarding career, that gives you a great outlet topointthem towards.

What Dann Would Tell His Younger Self [1:23:41]

Michael:So what else do you know now you wish you could go back and tell you from 10-plus years ago, early in your career?

Dann:I thinkfor young advisors, and this is just my constant message,isthis industry rewards persistence.And the most successful advisors I've known just picked something and stuck with it. And I give niching a hard time, but that's one method of picking something and sticking with it.I will tell youpersonally,Ilearned early about myself that I like having different clients.Having all similar clientswould maybehave made me losemyinterest years ago.Sure, it's great when you have five clients who work at Googleandyou have some leverage thereandyouknow their benefits.But I also like working with lawyers and doctors,not too manydoctors, but a handful.And so Ilikethe challenge of that.

Andsoit's a lot about knowing yourself and just picking something and sticking with it.AndI know that's not sexy and that doesn't make a great weekly podcast, but that really is an underlying current in this industry.Andthere's a lot of advisors out there who you're not going to hear on podcasts or see on liststhatare just doing that and are serving billions of dollars of clients' assets incredibly well.

Dann's Advice For Newer Advisors [1:25:23]

Michael:So what advice would you give to younger, newer advisors coming into the industry today, right, and starting their path as you did 15, 20 years ago?

Dann:I'mactuallyadapting this from our conversation here in that firm ownership does not have to be theendresult.And I know we're here talking about being an owner of a firm, but it is one path, and you don't have to set your sights solely on that end goal. And if youare focusedon the end goal, please know that there are advisors like myself, like David, like others who have been through that equity struggle, and we are committed to doing better.

What Success Means To Dann [1:26:22]

Michael:So aswe wrap up, this is a podcast about success.And oneof the themes that comes up isjustthe word success means very different things to different people. And soyou're on this wonderful path for success now as you're out with David and $165 million of AUM and growing. So the business is on a wonderfully successful path.How do you define success for yourself at this point?

Dann:It's funny because I don't think success is a word that's even in my lexicon.I don't remember the last time I used it.I certainly don't view myself as successful, but Ithink Ican point to what gives me the most fulfillment.And that would be being back at a place where my average client relationship is more than 10 years old. That is what I'm in it for.I'm in it forthe long-termrelationships thatisincredibly fulfilling, not justmyclients.And when I saythatthis soundssalesy,butwe always say our biggest client is our team,isour people, and wetrulydo mean that.And so the relationships with themisincredibly importantto me.

I still miss my old team.I have a wonderful new one that we're building and justhavingthose very long-term relationships.Anecdotally, I just spoke with a client.I rememberwhen his daughter was born, I worked with his parentsandthey said, "Oh, our first grandchild is born, wehave to open a 529."He just went on college visits with that same daughter and willbe withdrawingfrom that 529 next year. Experiences like that are what make me get up every day.

Michael:Very cool. Very cool.Well,thank you, Dann, for joining us on the "Financial Advisor Success"Podcast.

Dann:Thank you so much, Michael. Ireallyappreciate it.